Why can't Myers get bloodlust on tier 1? (2024)

Tzeentchling9 Member Posts: 1,796

December 2018

HellDescent Member Posts: 4,883

December 2018

December 2018

MojoTheFabulous Member Posts: 2,015

December 2018

RepliCant Member Posts: 1,436

December 2018 edited December 2018

@MojoTheFabulous @Tzeentchling9 @HellDescent @Wolf74

While all of you are right, it was also based on the old bloodlust speeds.

I wonder if this will get relooked at since the new BL speeds are less dependable.

Edit: Also, Wolf, I think Scratched Mirror got disregarded because it offers aura reading just by pressing a button. Could be wrong. Idk.

December 2018

@Brady said:

Edit: Also, Wolf, I think Scratched Mirror got disregarded because it offers aura reading just by pressing a button. Could be wrong. Idk.

And how effective is that if you can see them but can't hit them, cause they loop you to kingdom come?

RepliCant Member Posts: 1,436

December 2018

@Wolf74 said:

@Brady said:

Edit: Also, Wolf, I think Scratched Mirror got disregarded because it offers aura reading just by pressing a button. Could be wrong. Idk.

And how effective is that if you can see them but can't hit them, cause they loop you to kingdom come?

I'm not the one to be asking that.

HuN7r3sS Member Posts: 211

December 2018

PhantomMask20763 Member Posts: 5,176

December 2018

MyFreddyIsBae Member Posts: 39

December 2018

Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590

December 2018

dannyfrog87 Member Posts: 568

December 2018

@MyFreddyIsBae said:
Honestly, his addons need to be looked at, some of them are unfair for both sides, lmao. cough cough TombStone is OP cough cough

tombstone is op. do you know how long it takes to gain the evil to even use it? lol. most of the game you gotta go all out to get all that evil to kill you with the fragrant tuft of hair you can only harness so much evil from a survivor you have to gain evil from all 4 to make it work! its not easy whatsoever. needs to be looked at lol. good just lmao!

Incarnate Member Posts: 677

December 2018

@Wolf74 said:
Mate said that Shapes Tier 1 is meant to STALK instead of chase.

Thats really a bullsh*t reason not give Myers the possibility to get bloodlust, because getting bloodlust 1 takes the same amount of time as it does any other killer, and every killer wastes an equal amount of time chasing to get bloodlust - which is a significant amount of time, 15 seconds of continuous chasing, where the time waste it matters not if that was at move speed 4.2m/s or higher, it's still 15 seconds it takes to get it.

Peanits Dev, Community Manager Dev∙Community Manager › Posts: 7,510

December 2018

Myers in EW1 is not meant to chase, he is meant to stalk. Even when running a scratched mirror, you're ideally supposed to use LOS blockers and surprise them rather than brute forcing it. Bloodlust previously (specifically with scratched mirrors) would allow you to get a surprise hit, then brute force your way to an easy down.

Though that change was made back when bloodlust was 0.2, 0.6, 1.2, rather than the 0.2, 0.4, 0.6 it is now. It probably wouldn't be as big of a deal these days, but the change was put in back when it was.

But also the entire design behind the shape is that he is weak, and he gains strength by stalking survivors. Staying in EW1 is supposed to be slow, but still usable if you sneak up on people. If you just want to brute force it, stalk.

Incarnate Member Posts: 677

December 2018

@Peanits said:
Myers in EW1 is not meant to chase, he is meant to stalk. Even when running a scratched mirror, you're ideally supposed to use LOS blockers and surprise them rather than brute forcing it. Bloodlust previously (specifically with scratched mirrors) would allow you to get a surprise hit, then brute force your way to an easy down.

Though that change was made back when bloodlust was 0.2, 0.6, 1.2, rather than the 0.2, 0.4, 0.6 it is now. It probably wouldn't be as big of a deal these days, but the change was put in back when it was.

But also the entire design behind the shape is that he is weak, and he gains strength by stalking survivors. Staying in EW1 is supposed to be slow, but still usable if you sneak up on people. If you just want to brute force it, stalk.

That really shouldn't matter whether he's meant to stalk or chase, every killer will need to chase the victims - in EVERY match. There shouldn't be this sort of exception for a base mechanic, thats an actual catch up mechanic, no matter the design behind the killer. If you say it's because EW3 has a speed of 4.6m/s, then I have to remind you that there are other killers with that speed, as base speed, who happen to benefit from bloodlust no matter the circ*mstances in regards to their power or kit.

...also how one ideally should play, shouldn't play a part either in the decision that he can't benefit from bloodlust at EW1. Because he's not really that dangerous at EW1, because in EW1 he's only at speed 4.2m/s, and you can counter him creeping up on you by paying attention to your surroundings. At speed 4.2m/s he's exceptionally easy to loop.

I can understand why you'd think bloodlust on EW3 would be too strong, because that's where he's the deadliest, and he's potentially able to benefit from several levels of bloodlust during EW3 - from that standpoint I can understand why you'd want to limit bloodlust on him, but only EW3. EW1-2, he's not that dangerous.

But this doesn't change the fact that every killer is supposed to chase down their victims, where Myers certainly is no exception to this either, even when in EW1, and bloodlust only helps you when you've been in a prolonged chase.

You could also argue that there are plenty of other killers that shouldn't benefit from bloodlust either because they were not designed to really make that much use of it. Just take Huntress, she's was designed to throw hatchts, so she got hatchets, which means she doesn't really need to chase, all she needs is good aim. But we both know that she can't really on the hatchets all the time, even with great aim and skill she eventually will need to chase.

Bottomline is, that Bloodlust is a base chase catch up mechanic, which every killer should be able to benefit from, where if they don't they will be missing out on the thing thats supposed to help balance those chases.

Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506

December 2018

Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:
Myers in EW1 is not meant to chase, he is meant to stalk. Even when running a scratched mirror, you're ideally supposed to use LOS blockers and surprise them rather than brute forcing it. Bloodlust previously (specifically with scratched mirrors) would allow you to get a surprise hit, then brute force your way to an easy down.

Though that change was made back when bloodlust was 0.2, 0.6, 1.2, rather than the 0.2, 0.4, 0.6 it is now. It probably wouldn't be as big of a deal these days, but the change was put in back when it was.

But also the entire design behind the shape is that he is weak, and he gains strength by stalking survivors. Staying in EW1 is supposed to be slow, but still usable if you sneak up on people. If you just want to brute force it, stalk.

That really shouldn't matter whether he's meant to stalk or chase, every killer will need to chase the victims - in EVERY match. There shouldn't be this sort of exception for a base mechanic, thats an actual catch up mechanic, no matter the design behind the killer. If you say it's because EW3 has a speed of 4.6m/s, then I have to remind you that there are other killers with that speed, as base speed, who happen to benefit from bloodlust no matter the circ*mstances in regards to their power or kit.

...also how one ideally should play, shouldn't play a part either in the decision that he can't benefit from bloodlust at EW1. Because he's not really that dangerous at EW1, because in EW1 he's only at speed 4.2m/s, and you can counter him creeping up on you by paying attention to your surroundings. At speed 4.2m/s he's exceptionally easy to loop.

I can understand why you'd think bloodlust on EW3 would be too strong, because that's where he's the deadliest, and he's potentially able to benefit from several levels of bloodlust during EW3 - from that standpoint I can understand why you'd want to limit bloodlust on him, but only EW3. EW1-2, he's not that dangerous.

But this doesn't change the fact that every killer is supposed to chase down their victims, where Myers certainly is no exception to this either, even when in EW1, and bloodlust only helps you when you've been in a prolonged chase.

You could also argue that there are plenty of other killers that shouldn't benefit from bloodlust either because they were not designed to really make that much use of it. Just take Huntress, she's was designed to throw hatchts, so she got hatchets, which means she doesn't really need to chase, all she needs is good aim. But we both know that she can't really on the hatchets all the time, even with great aim and skill she eventually will need to chase.

Bottomline is, that Bloodlust is a base chase catch up mechanic, which every killer should be able to benefit from, where if they don't they will be missing out on the thing thats supposed to help balance those chases.

Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Incarnate Member Posts: 677

December 2018

Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506

December 2018

Incarnate said:

Carpemortumsaid:

>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

It's not forcing anything.

You either go EW2/3 and stalk/chase.

Or.

You go EW1 stalk surprise and bloodlust is irrelevant...

Peanits Dev, Community Manager Dev∙Community Manager › Posts: 7,510

December 2018

@Incarnate said:
Carpemortumsaid:

>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

MyFreddyIsBae Member Posts: 39

December 2018

dannyfrog87 said:

@MyFreddyIsBae said:
Honestly, his addons need to be looked at, some of them are unfair for both sides, lmao. cough cough TombStone is OP cough cough

tombstone is op. do you know how long it takes to gain the evil to even use it? lol. most of the game you gotta go all out to get all that evil to kill you with the fragrant tuft of hair you can only harness so much evil from a survivor you have to gain evil from all 4 to make it work! its not easy whatsoever. needs to be looked at lol. good just lmao!

Thats why I said that his addons are unfair for both sides. Dont tell me that getting moried without going down is fair because "muh evil requirment"

December 2018

@MyFreddyIsBae said:
dannyfrog87 said:

@MyFreddyIsBae said:

Honestly, his addons need to be looked at, some of them are unfair for both sides, lmao. cough cough TombStone is OP cough cough

tombstone is op. do you know how long it takes to gain the evil to even use it? lol. most of the game you gotta go all out to get all that evil to kill you with the fragrant tuft of hair you can only harness so much evil from a survivor you have to gain evil from all 4 to make it work! its not easy whatsoever. needs to be looked at lol. good just lmao!

Thats why I said that his addons are unfair for both sides. Dont tell me that getting moried without going down is fair because "muh evil requirment"

Yes, that's a special add on that is balanced because: "muh evil requirment".

Incarnate Member Posts: 677

December 2018

@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:

Carpemortum said:

>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust, then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

It's not forcing anything.

You either go EW2/3 and stalk/chase.

Or.

You go EW1 stalk surprise and bloodlust is irrelevant...

Yes it does force the player to play in a certain way to be able to get, namely that he/she has to stalk up to EW2. So it does force the player to in certain ways rather than letting the players play as they like, whether that is playing the killers as intended, completely different or just m1 through it all, that should be completely up to the player - not how it's designed nor the devs, but the player.

Bloodlust isn't irrelevant when in EW1, there may be reasons why someone would be holding off with going higher EW. Even in EW1 you will forced to chase if you want to down one. If you could go back to EW1, then it would be a different story, but you cannot.

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:
Carpemortumsaid:

>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing. In much the same way that no one should be telling you how to play the game UNLESS you're asking for advice, how one plays the shouldn't be anyone elses business UNLESS they're cheating, exploiting or abusing mechanics in ways they weren't intended - much like the tapping to avoid skill checks should be considered an exploit because it specifically makes you able to avoid game mechanics that it weren't intended to be avoided, but isn't considered it even though it really should. So playing differently than one is optimal or intended way certainly shouldn't mean that you're excluded from utilizing base catchup mechanics.

In regards to the pig, you say she has two options? She has lot more options and can FREELY choose between them, Myers cannot - which is a very, very big difference. She can choose to SNEAK around or not and even keep switching back and forth, hence why it makes sense she wouldn't be able to benefit from it bloodlust in that stance, because she IS litterally SNEAKING around, where Myers is just walking around by the default stance and CANNOT switch between the stances, he can only go faster (stalk up to higher EWs) but cannot revert back to EW1. So since he's WALKING around in the default moving stance at 4.2m/s, like any other killer at 4.2m/s in default moving stance, it would only be reasonable that he would be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1. Furthermore the pig can RBT her victims which applies pressure on the victims passively but also makes them much, much more vulnerable and extremely easy to down again, and if they don't manage to get them of in time she gets a kill. Myers don't have this, sure he can become very dangerous and very fast turn it into a slugfest, but he can't kill any one unless he's using a specific addon or a mori offering. So you could even argue that Pig shouldn't have access to bloodlust when she's chasing a victim who's RBT'ed.

There is also something quite important here, when it comes to a chase, the low terror radius won't really help Myers, because victims will irregardless of this be trying to stay aware of where he is during the chase, and it doesn't help him end the chase either, where being at 4.2m/s certainly doesn't help him either. Stalking up won't help him much either as killers with 4.4m/s are still quite loopable. It would make sense that he weren't able to get bloodlust in EW1 IF, and only IF he could revert back to EW1, otherwise he should be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1. The low terror radius might even affect detrimentally for Myers as being in the terror radius is intended to make the victim players feel pressured and thus be more likely to make mistakes, due to impulse-decisions, so if they're suddenly not in the terror radius during a chase, they won't feel as pressured and thus not be as inclined to make bad impulse-decisions.

So in contrast to the pig, who can FREELY switch between SNEAKING and MOVING NORMALLY and can benefit from bloodlust when she isn't SNEAKING, makes it quite obvious that Myers should be able to actually freely revert to EW1, just as Pig can revert to normal moving stance. I also think that it makes it quite obvious that Myers should be able to freely switch between EW1-2 but has to stalk up to EW3. So if Myers could freely switch between EW1-2 or the very least freely switch back to EW1, then it's acceptable that you can't have bloodlust capability in EW1, otherwise he really should be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1.

December 2018

@Incarnate said:

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way.
...
Yes it does force the player to play in a certain way to be able to get, namely that he/she has to stalk up to EW2. So it does force the player to in certain ways rather than letting the players play as they like, whether that is playing the killers as intended, completely different or just m1 through it all, that should be completely up to the player - not how it's designed nor the devs, but the player.

...

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.

Applaus
I absolutely LOVE this post.

Peanits Dev, Community Manager Dev∙Community Manager › Posts: 7,510

December 2018

@Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:
>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think you should be able to intentionally play something the wrong way and expect good results. I could play the nurse without blinking but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. If you choose not to use your power, you are handicapping yourself. In the case of Myers, you are not meant to chase people in EW1, which is why by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge.

I ain't going to stop you if that's how you want to play him, but it's like not using pallets or windows as a survivor and expecting everything to come up Milhouse. It's just not gonna' happen.

Rebel_Raven Member Posts: 1,775

December 2018

Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506

December 2018

Incarnate said:

@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:

Carpemortum said:

>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust, then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

It's not forcing anything.

You either go EW2/3 and stalk/chase.

Or.

You go EW1 stalk surprise and bloodlust is irrelevant...

Yes it does force the player to play in a certain way to be able to get, namely that he/she has to stalk up to EW2. So it does force the player to in certain ways rather than letting the players play as they like, whether that is playing the killers as intended, completely different or just m1 through it all, that should be completely up to the player - not how it's designed nor the devs, but the player.

Bloodlust isn't irrelevant when in EW1, there may be reasons why someone would be holding off with going higher EW. Even in EW1 you will forced to chase if you want to down one. If you could go back to EW1, then it would be a different story, but you cannot.

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:
Carpemortumsaid:

>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing. In much the same way that no one should be telling you how to play the game UNLESS you're asking for advice, how one plays the shouldn't be anyone elses business UNLESS they're cheating, exploiting or abusing mechanics in ways they weren't intended - much like the tapping to avoid skill checks should be considered an exploit because it specifically makes you able to avoid game mechanics that it weren't intended to be avoided, but isn't considered it even though it really should. So playing differently than one is optimal or intended way certainly shouldn't mean that you're excluded from utilizing base catchup mechanics.

In regards to the pig, you say she has two options? She has lot more options and can FREELY choose between them, Myers cannot - which is a very, very big difference. She can choose to SNEAK around or not and even keep switching back and forth, hence why it makes sense she wouldn't be able to benefit from it bloodlust in that stance, because she IS litterally SNEAKING around, where Myers is just walking around by the default stance and CANNOT switch between the stances, he can only go faster (stalk up to higher EWs) but cannot revert back to EW1. So since he's WALKING around in the default moving stance at 4.2m/s, like any other killer at 4.2m/s in default moving stance, it would only be reasonable that he would be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1. Furthermore the pig can RBT her victims which applies pressure on the victims passively but also makes them much, much more vulnerable and extremely easy to down again, and if they don't manage to get them of in time she gets a kill. Myers don't have this, sure he can become very dangerous and very fast turn it into a slugfest, but he can't kill any one unless he's using a specific addon or a mori offering. So you could even argue that Pig shouldn't have access to bloodlust when she's chasing a victim who's RBT'ed.

There is also something quite important here, when it comes to a chase, the low terror radius won't really help Myers, because victims will irregardless of this be trying to stay aware of where he is during the chase, and it doesn't help him end the chase either, where being at 4.2m/s certainly doesn't help him either. Stalking up won't help him much either as killers with 4.4m/s are still quite loopable. It would make sense that he weren't able to get bloodlust in EW1 IF, and only IF he could revert back to EW1, otherwise he should be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1. The low terror radius might even affect detrimentally for Myers as being in the terror radius is intended to make the victim players feel pressured and thus be more likely to make mistakes, due to impulse-decisions, so if they're suddenly not in the terror radius during a chase, they won't feel as pressured and thus not be as inclined to make bad impulse-decisions.

So in contrast to the pig, who can FREELY switch between SNEAKING and MOVING NORMALLY and can benefit from bloodlust when she isn't SNEAKING, makes it quite obvious that Myers should be able to actually freely revert to EW1, just as Pig can revert to normal moving stance. I also think that it makes it quite obvious that Myers should be able to freely switch between EW1-2 but has to stalk up to EW3. So if Myers could freely switch between EW1-2 or the very least freely switch back to EW1, then it's acceptable that you can't have bloodlust capability in EW1, otherwise he really should be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1.

😂 [1] LOL!

Incarnate Member Posts: 677

December 2018

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:
>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think you should be able to intentionally play something the wrong way and expect good results. I could play the nurse without blinking but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. If you choose not to use your power, you are handicapping yourself.

I ain't going to stop you if that's how you want to play him, but it's like not using pallets or windows as a survivor and expecting everything to come up Milhouse. It's just not gonna' happen.

There is no wrong way to play unless you're cheating, exploiting or abusing unintended game mechanics to get an unfair advantage or impose a disadvantage to your opponent and that way gain an unfair advantage.
It's not like how bloodlust is now would be much of a buff to Myers EW1, but it certainly would make it possible to keep playing him more "sneaky". The "problem" with Myers power is that you can't freely choose when to use it, you can either choose to use it or not, but when you do you have to commit to it, which is why many would remain in EW1 until they need to go higher, where others just stalk up the first chance they get. Which is what I'm talking about, you should be able to play him and any other killer as you like, but with Myers due to the fact that you cannot revert you're LITERALLY forced to play a certain way, which not being capable of benefitting from bloodlust in EW1 contributes to.

Well.. Any other 4.2m/s killer can play m1 style and still get bloodlust, and whether it's going to end bad or not is completely irrelevant as every player should be able to play as they want and not be forced to play a certain way, just because some think that it's a wrong way to play. That is EXACTLY what this design decision does, is force players to play a specific way because otherwise it most likely will end badly.

@Peanits said:

In the case of Myers, you are not meant to chase people in EW1, which is why by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge.

You said it yourself, he's already handicapped because he's not meant to chase his victims in EW1 and by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge, but that shouldn't mean he shouldn't be able to chase if it came to it, which is EXACTLY what it does that he can't benefit from bloodlust in EW1 - he can't chase on equal terms as other killers, which is why there is a catch up chase mechanic, because if it's not there you can be endlessly looped. The exactly why the bloodlust mechanic is there, as catch up chase mechanic, to help deal with the looping issue. So by design, the devs are really saying we want Myers to be endlessly loopable when in EW1, but hey if thats a problem you can just stalk up to EW2 and then be a chaser, because otherwise you're not playing him as we want you to.

You don't see a problem with players being forced to play a certain way?

DwightsLifeMatters Member Posts: 1,649

December 2018

Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:
>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think you should be able to intentionally play something the wrong way and expect good results. I could play the nurse without blinking but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. If you choose not to use your power, you are handicapping yourself. In the case of Myers, you are not meant to chase people in EW1, which is why by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge.

I ain't going to stop you if that's how you want to play him, but it's like not using pallets or windows as a survivor and expecting everything to come up Milhouse. It's just not gonna' happen.

Well, at least u can get bloodlust on nurse tho. U tried racing cars nurse meme build with stbfl? Quite funny and not as bad as u might think

Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506

December 2018

Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:
>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think you should be able to intentionally play something the wrong way and expect good results. I could play the nurse without blinking but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. If you choose not to use your power, you are handicapping yourself.

I ain't going to stop you if that's how you want to play him, but it's like not using pallets or windows as a survivor and expecting everything to come up Milhouse. It's just not gonna' happen.

There is no wrong way to play unless you're cheating, exploiting or abusing unintended game mechanics to get an unfair advantage or impose a disadvantage to your opponent and that way gain an unfair advantage.
It's not like how bloodlust is now would be much of a buff to Myers EW1, but it certainly would make it possible to keep playing him more "sneaky". The "problem" with Myers power is that you can't freely choose when to use it, you can either choose to use it or not, but when you do you have to commit to it, which is why many would remain in EW1 until they need to go higher, where others just stalk up the first chance they get. Which is what I'm talking about, you should be able to play him and any other killer as you like, but with Myers due to the fact that you cannot revert you're LITERALLY forced to play a certain way, which not being capable of benefitting from bloodlust in EW1 contributes to.

Well.. Any other 4.2m/s killer can play m1 style and still get bloodlust, and whether it's going to end bad or not is completely irrelevant as every player should be able to play as they want and not be forced to play a certain way, just because some think that it's a wrong way to play. That is EXACTLY what this design decision does, is force players to play a specific way because otherwise it most likely will end badly.

@Peanits said:

In the case of Myers, you are not meant to chase people in EW1, which is why by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge.

You said it yourself, he's already handicapped because he's not meant to chase his victims in EW1 and by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge, but that shouldn't mean he shouldn't be able to chase if it came to it, which is EXACTLY what it does that he can't benefit from bloodlust in EW1 - he can't chase on equal terms as other killers, which is why there is a catch up chase mechanic, because if it's not there you can be endlessly looped. The exactly why the bloodlust mechanic is there, as catch up chase mechanic, to help deal with the looping issue. So by design, the devs are really saying we want Myers to be endlessly loopable when in EW1, but hey if thats a problem you can just stalk up to EW2 and then be a chaser, because otherwise you're not playing him as we want you to.

You don't see a problem with players being forced to play a certain way?

You're not forced to play a certain way. If you choose to stay at EW1 you know you are doing it, are not using his power AS IT WAS CREATED, and are probably using mirror or a meme build for scares.

You can choose to play optimally. You can choose that with EW1 builds or regular ones. It's your choice.

But if you want to play him a certain way, that is not optimal for his kit as is in game, you cannot expect optimal results. Period.

Incarnate Member Posts: 677

December 2018

@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:

>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think you should be able to intentionally play something the wrong way and expect good results. I could play the nurse without blinking but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. If you choose not to use your power, you are handicapping yourself.

I ain't going to stop you if that's how you want to play him, but it's like not using pallets or windows as a survivor and expecting everything to come up Milhouse. It's just not gonna' happen.

There is no wrong way to play unless you're cheating, exploiting or abusing unintended game mechanics to get an unfair advantage or impose a disadvantage to your opponent and that way gain an unfair advantage.

It's not like how bloodlust is now would be much of a buff to Myers EW1, but it certainly would make it possible to keep playing him more "sneaky". The "problem" with Myers power is that you can't freely choose when to use it, you can either choose to use it or not, but when you do you have to commit to it, which is why many would remain in EW1 until they need to go higher, where others just stalk up the first chance they get. Which is what I'm talking about, you should be able to play him and any other killer as you like, but with Myers due to the fact that you cannot revert you're LITERALLY forced to play a certain way, which not being capable of benefitting from bloodlust in EW1 contributes to.

Well.. Any other 4.2m/s killer can play m1 style and still get bloodlust, and whether it's going to end bad or not is completely irrelevant as every player should be able to play as they want and not be forced to play a certain way, just because some think that it's a wrong way to play. That is EXACTLY what this design decision does, is force players to play a specific way because otherwise it most likely will end badly.

@Peanits said:

In the case of Myers, you are not meant to chase people in EW1, which is why by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge.

You said it yourself, he's already handicapped because he's not meant to chase his victims in EW1 and by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge, but that shouldn't mean he shouldn't be able to chase if it came to it, which is EXACTLY what it does that he can't benefit from bloodlust in EW1 - he can't chase on equal terms as other killers, which is why there is a catch up chase mechanic, because if it's not there you can be endlessly looped. The exactly why the bloodlust mechanic is there, as catch up chase mechanic, to help deal with the looping issue. So by design, the devs are really saying we want Myers to be endlessly loopable when in EW1, but hey if thats a problem you can just stalk up to EW2 and then be a chaser, because otherwise you're not playing him as we want you to.

You don't see a problem with players being forced to play a certain way?

You're not forced to play a certain way. If you choose to stay at EW1 you know you are doing it, are not using his power AS IT WAS CREATED, and are probably using mirror or a meme build for scares.

You can choose to play optimally. You can choose that with EW1 builds or regular ones. It's your choice.

But if you want to play him a certain way, that is not optimal for his kit as is in game, you cannot expect optimal results. Period.

Yes, you're AUTOMATICALLY force to play a certain way - the intended way, because if you don't you're going to suffer for it, because you cannot chase anyone down unless stalk up, ONLY because you can't benefit from bloodlust in EW1 - he can basically be looped endlessly because he cannot benefit from the chase CATCH-UP MECHANICS aka Bloodlust in EW1.

This isn't about playing in a way thats not optimal for his kit, but the very fact that because of Myers not being able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1 means that you're FORCED to stalk up to EW2 to be able to benefit from bloodlust, where going from EW1 to EW2 affects how you're going to play Myers quite significantly due to the fact that you suddenly don't have a low terror radius. It basically makes his power a commit or don't the power kind of thing, because once you've gone EW2 you have no way to go back to stealth play - which ruins the whole stealth play that is intended with him.

December 2018

@Incarnate said:

You don't see a problem with players being forced to play a certain way?

That's THE most important question.
Not only to Mods, but especially to Devs.

Incarnate Member Posts: 677

December 2018

December 2018

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:

@Peanits said:

@Incarnate said:
>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.

Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust,then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.

The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.

There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.

There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think you should be able to intentionally play something the wrong way and expect good results. I could play the nurse without blinking but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. If you choose not to use your power, you are handicapping yourself. In the case of Myers, you are not meant to chase people in EW1, which is why by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge.

I ain't going to stop you if that's how you want to play him, but it's like not using pallets or windows as a survivor and expecting everything to come up Milhouse. It's just not gonna' happen.

You can really screw yourself over if you use Scratched Mirror and wind up on an open map like Shelter Woods.